Re: Tense and Aspect (was Re: Wow!...) Rob Zook Tue, 09 Dec 1997 11:01:37 -0600 At 05:03 PM 12/8/97 -0600, Saul wrote: > >> Well, I did not think it "complete" enough. It seems logical enough >> if we can flesh it out more. > >It may seem less logical as its complexity becomes more apparent. Well, I just finished reveiwing the tense aspect system for Lojban and now I'm really disappointed in the Vulcan system. More so since I'm not sure what we should do about it. I still have a feeling it's more a lack of completeness than anything. However, now I tend to agree with you that I don't like combining tense, aspect and mode together with one infix for one particular meaning. I say: >> >>s'at cta va'num ongo s'kalv,djuna s'deelu Saul says: >> > va'numka cta'ehi; kalvnama s'at deeluha >> > >> > find-! fact-PLUR; distort-PERM thou-GEN pleasure-DAT >> >First, I missed something: cta'ehi should be fact-PLUR-ACC. Second, >-ma is the permissive suffix, analagous to English "may." I probably >followed Twain's grammar more closely than he intended, to be sure. >But requests and suggestions often take the imperative. And the >English imperative construction is simply VO, with S deleted and V in >the second person. > >I used the dative in a semi-creative fashion. A close paraphrase >might be something like "to your liking." The original Twain quote >uses "as much as," which is a comparative construction that we're not >equipped for yet. We do have one comparitive grammer structure: equals. I tried to use the "distort" and "pleasure" as descriptions to use the X Y comparative order grammer. X Y means X = Y. The word order in the first clause follows a sentence from the Lexicon: th'at t'hyle-at i-plaplak "this blood of my friends" my friend-'s this-blood s'at cta'e your facts However I note from the addentum that the normal word order is V+O+S so I probably should have the full first clause read: va'numkaa s'at cta'e Lit. "find your facts" We don't have an ordinal operator to make a numeral 1 into the word "first" (one of those neccessary formal mode words I'll post more on later), so I left it out. Now about the accusitive case, I'm not sure that's neccessary here. My knowledge of has deteriated a bit on the details so maybe if you explained a little on how this case works in English I could see it. The rest of your revision I think I accept as at least the best we can do now. Except that you left out the future tense which could translate as the "then" in this case. So I would say then: va'numkaa s'at cta'e; kalv,djunama s'at deeluha Rob Z. -------------------------------------------------------- Tis an old maxim in the schools, That flattery 's the food of fools; Yet now and then your men of wit Will condescend to take a bit. --- Johnathon Swift, Cadenus and Vanessa.