Re: Dipthongs and other things (was Re: Arrghhhh!!!! and Rob Zook Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:50:51 -0600 At 10:37 AM 12/1/97 -0600, Saul wrote: >> I think a word like seems pretty feasible. Try this: start >>with your tongue at the edge of the flesh behind the teeth. Start to >>say the [l] sound and move your tongue back along the top of your >>mouth, keeping it in contact. At this point your tongue should be in >>the same position as it would normally be for an [r] but with the tip >>of your tongue touching instead of the sides. Lower the tongue to say >>the [a], and as you do the sides of your tongue will move into the >>position for an [r] for just a second. When you allow these steps to >>flow, it sounds like one syllable to me. > >Mmm. There are phonetic terms, co-articulation and secondary >articulation, which may cover what you're talking about. (I never >could keep straight exactly what the difference was, so I'll have to >look them up.) If so they wouldn't be clusters, per se, but might be >something to think about including. Ok. If we call them clusters in terms of the word generation program we can control the frequency of their appearance. However, see below... >That's just my take on this business of what guides my feeling of >what "sounds" Vulcan. In addition, I keep in mind that Marketa finds >in the language so far a high degree of "music," though I'm not >exactly sure what that means. ;-) That's not too far off what I conceive Vulcan as sounding like. I guess I've been going by what we've heard in the movies. BTW Spock spoke to Savik in Vulcan several times in ST:TWOK, does anyone have a transciption from that scene? Maybe in one of the informal scripts that float around the net from time to time. Same goes for the Kohlinahr scene in ST:TMP. In the movies, going by just how it sounded, I agree it sounded very harsh and gutteral, but not so much as tlhIgan Hol. >Basically, while I find clusters like /kht/ or /tx/ highly >appropriate, I wonder about /yr/ -- beyond just wondering how to say >it. Hmmm..,well, how about this then: maybe we can retain that "music" Marketa wants in it by including such clusters of consonents, as lr and yr, and hard to pronounce fricative clusters, but make the frequencies on the stop, and fricative clusters higher or much higher than the more "liquid" one, to get a kind of sing-song effect. Harsh and gutreral lightly interspirced with more lilting sounds. >> Well, I may have an excessive fondness for difficult sounds in >>general. I like the idea of consonent clusters involving whl, but if >>I'm in the minority here by all means let's drop them and move on. > >Actually, at various times I've considered specifically banning some >sequences that many Terrans would find very easy, just to even things >out a bit. As for minorities, so far only two of us have said >anything about this, so it's either consensus or deadlock. I can't >say I'm opposed to the idea, anyway, just frightened. Which is no >good reason to keep them out. Whether /whl/ becomes a participant in >clusters or not, it's definitely one whose frequency should be >boosted. Well, if you have no major exceptions to clusters with /whl/ then lets keep them for a while, and see what the words will look like and sound like. Then we can always step back and do some adjusting. Well, no doubt have to do so for other things in any case. >> >> The Lexicon does mention a few other diphthongs not in the >> >dictionary: >> >> au, eu, ou. >> > >> >I think /au/ does show up as . If memory serves -- and it may >> >well not -- is pronounced /plaak tau/. The are also >> >occurances of which could either be /au/ or /o/. >> >> Actually I had forgotten that one. I kind of like the way it looks >when >> spelled , as well. > >A while back I made a copy of the word list and went through and >respelled much of it in the same way. I should probably let you run >it through the mill to see what kind of distribution it has. Please do, as I also made such a list, and I'm curious as to how our two lists differ. Rob Z. -------------------------------------------------------- Not reaching a goal on a given day does not preclude reaching it tomorrow, or next year. One failure does not mean all is lost. Let it be motivation to improve, to deliver optimum performance in the next undertaking, whatever it may be - not to give up and quit trying. -- Capt. Spock