Re: Dipthongs and other things (was Re: Arrghhhh!!!! and aSummaryof What has Gone Before) Saul Epstein Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:37:41 -0600 From: Rob Zook Date: Friday, November 28, 1997 1:01 PM > At 10:04 AM 11/28/97 -0600, Saul wrote: > > >> [approximate]+[tap]: > >> lr yr wr > >> > >> They received no comment the first time, so I thought I'd toss them > >in > >> here. I got just the reaction I hoped for. I take it "Yikes" means > >you > >> don't like the last set? > > > >Yes, and now I remember not liking them before. In fact, I remember > >saying something about them too: not only do the look impossible, > >they don't sound Vulcan. And when I say they look impossible, I mean > >from an articulatory perspective. I don't think they could be said > >without introducing a syllable. So we could end up with words written > >to look like this, but not pronounced like this. Except, if the > >etymology of whl'q'n is any guide, these might have apostraphes > >between them too. > > Which clusters specifically did you not like? Only, lr, yr, and wr? > Or also the other two sets of: vl, zl, jl, xl, fl, sl, cl, hl; and mr, > nr, n~r, ngr? No, just the lr,yr,wr series. > I think a word like seems pretty feasible. Try this: start with > your tongue at the edge of the flesh behind the teeth. Start to say the > [l] sound and move your tongue back along the top of your mouth, keeping > it in contact. At this point your tongue should be in the same position > as it would normally be for an [r] but with the tip of your tongue > touching instead of the sides. Lower the tongue to say the [a], and as > you do the sides of your tongue will move into the position for an [r] > for just a second. When you allow these steps to flow, it sounds like > one syllable to me. Mmm. There are phonetic terms, co-articulation and secondary articulation, which may cover what you're talking about. (I never could keep straight exactly what the difference was, so I'll have to look them up.) If so they wouldn't be clusters, per se, but might be something to think about including. > Now, having said that I could have an inordinate fondness for consonant > clusters involving an r sound. I have no major objections to not using > them - not enough to cause any problems over it. As far as them not > sounding Vulcan, I'm not sure how to go about disputing that. What > specifically to you feel Vulcan should sound like? Did you have or > get an impression of a certain preponderance of sounds? If so why > would the aformentioned consonents violate that? Before we knew anything about Klingon, it seems that Vulcan was described as "harsh." It was supposed to go with their reserved, no-nonsense attitudes and the oppressiveness of their climate, gravity, etc. (This would all be a matter of some silly Terrans explaining to themselves several things that happen to coincide as having caused each other...) Later, when Diane Duane showed us the origins of the Rihannsu, we learned that they had deliberately reformed their language along "opposing" lines, with a result that was more "liquid." To me this has meant that Vulcan, on the one hand, would be heavy on stops and fricatives and might even prefer the voiceless varieties. It might distribute its sounds more towards the front and back of the mouth, where the lesser flexibility of the articulators defines sounds more sharply. The language of the Rihannsu, on the other hand, would be heavy on those sounds Terran linguists have so much trouble classifying, and label with words like "liquid," or "glide," or "semi-vowel." It would prefer voiced varieties, and might distribute its sounds more towards the center of the mouth, where the flexibility of the tongue is exactly what makes most of the troublesome sounds possible. That's just my take on this business of what guides my feeling of what "sounds" Vulcan. In addition, I keep in mind that Marketa finds in the language so far a high degree of "music," though I'm not exactly sure what that means. ;-) Basically, while I find clusters like /kht/ or /tx/ highly appropriate, I wonder about /yr/ -- beyond just wondering how to say it. > Well, I may have an excessive fondness for difficult sounds in general. > I like the idea of consonent clusters involving whl, but if I'm in the > minority here by all means let's drop them and move on. Actually, at various times I've considered specifically banning some sequences that many Terrans would find very easy, just to even things out a bit. As for minorities, so far only two of us have said anything about this, so it's either consensus or deadlock. I can't say I'm opposed to the idea, anyway, just frightened. Which is no good reason to keep them out. Whether /whl/ becomes a participant in clusters or not, it's definitely one whose frequency should be boosted. > >> The Lexicon does mention a few other diphthongs not in the > >dictionary: > >> au, eu, ou. > > > >I think /au/ does show up as . If memory serves -- and it may > >well not -- is pronounced /plaak tau/. The are also > >occurances of which could either be /au/ or /o/. > > Actually I had forgotten that one. I kind of like the way it looks when > spelled , as well. A while back I made a copy of the word list and went through and respelled much of it in the same way. I should probably let you run it through the mill to see what kind of distribution it has. -- from Saul Epstein liberty*uit,net www,johnco,cc,ks,us/~sepstein "Surak ow'phaaper thes'hi thes'tca'; thes'phaadjar thes'hi suraketca'." -- K'dvarin Urswhl'at