Re: A Proposal for a Modern Vulcan script Saul Epstein Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:56:19 -0600 At 08:48 AM 10/31/97 -0600, Rob wrote: >At 08:35 AM 10/31/97 -0600, Saul wrote: > >>> >5. /rh/ is both described as "retroflex" and compared to a >>> >sound which is a palato-pharyngeal approximant (the >>> >Irish/American /r/). This discrepency needs to be explained. >>> >>> Now, this one I also notice, I mixed ZC orthography and yours. >>> You did this one as "rr" right? >> >>Mmm? Oh, yes, but that isn't what I was talking about. That is, I >>recommended to replace in order to restrict a following >>to representing aspiration or similar things. But the sound /rh/ >>itself is described as two different sounds, and we'll have to decide >>(or be told) which is more correct, or if the difference is related >>to dialect, or represents two allophones, etc. > >"rh - voiced retroflex vibrant, somewhat like American or > Irish 'r'." > >Hmmm, so what would be a good example of the first one, the voiced >retroflexed vibrant? BTW, what does vibrant refere to? Does it equate >to "trill" which I see on the IPA consonent chart? The first one... well, it would depend on what a vibrant is, you're right. I've been assuming that what was meant was the retroflex /r/ found in Indic languages. (Curl your tongue back so that the underside faces the roof of your mouth. This is sometimes a tap or trill, and sometimes an approximant.) On the one hand, voiced and vibrant sounds redundant, because voicing is vibration of the vocal "cords." But I suppose vibrant could refer to vibration at the point of articulation. That, in turn, sounds like one more hair to split regarding approximants/fricatives/trills. An American /r/, however, isn't really anything like that. The apex of the tongue rises as for a /t/, but that isn't so far as to be retroflex. The tongue seems "curled" because the center of the tongue is also rising as for a high central vowel (half-way between /ii/ and /uu/) and the root of the tongue is simultaneously moving back to constrict the pharynx, which is the part of the throat above the glottis. And the lips are usually rounded. It's among the most complex articulations to be found, and among the most challenging AmerEnglish acquisitions for children and non-native speakers. The Irish /r/ is different, but I can't quite feel what it is. It may be missing the pharyngealization. >>The appearance of "phonomological," just pushed me over >>the edge, I guess. > >I guess I kept missing that. So phonomological should be spelled >phonemological? Or am I making a word up here? Perhaps I should say >a phonemic analysis? Yes. Or phonological. I hope I only rarely come across as snotty with regards to terminology. -- from Saul Epstein liberty uit net www johnco cc ks us sepstein "Surak ow'phaaper thes'hi thes'tca'; thes'phaadjar thes'hi suraketca'." -- K'dvarin Urswhl'at