Re: VL-TRANS: a favorite saying
Rob Zook 
Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:45:53 -0500

At 01:29 PM 10/21/97 -0500, Saul wrote:
>At 12:29 PM 10/21/97 -0500, Rob wrote:
<snicker-snack>
>>>after Surak. But I cannot agree that all the other voices would have 
>>>been
>>>silenced.
>>
>>You've mentioned something like this before, and really feel sure I 
>>don't
>>understand what you mean. What kind of applications of this ambiguous 
>>voice did you have in mind? What kind of form would the grammer take, if
>>you say use English in your examples?
>
>"Suddenly light
> Suddenly dark -
> I am a shooting star too."

As Doc McCoy would say, "Now hang on here just a cotton picken'
minute". You have shown an english translation of a Vulcan poem.
Poetry does not translate well at all in any language.

"kahs'khiori th'thya" does not translate to "I am a shooting
star" exactly, the ambiguity in this case arises in the English
translation.

More literally translated "shooting star  = self". Which sounds
nonsensical unless one assumes a poetic mode of speaking.

>Or something originally English:
>
>"If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps 
>it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step 
>to the music which he hears, however measured or far away."

Same thing in E-Prime:

If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps _this
occurs_ because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to
the music which he hears however measured or far away.

Or "perhaps he hears a different drummer".

An unambiguous grammer does not imply a lack of gratuitous
metaphors. The fact that Thoreau did not refer to an existant
drummer or music does not mean the language to express such an
utterance must have ambiguous grammatical rules.

>These are examples of ambiguous expressions. They don't demonstrate
>anything grammatical because English doesn't distinguish between 
>ambiguous and inambiguous expression in its grammar. One might argue 
>that it can't.

Perhaps I should have spoke more specifically. I mean only we should
make sure to have an unambiguous grammer. Vulcan does not appear to 
have ambiguous grammer now, just not fully fleshed out. I do not think 
that an ambiguous grammer would preclude any poetry, or creative prose.

I just think that the grammer, and semantic rules should make it obvious
when we are using the poetic/metaphorical mode, and a 
scientific/existential mode.

Right now the Vulcan language seems to do that. I just want us to keep 
it that way. The fact that Vulcan does not have a "to be" or "is of" 
identity implies this idea to me.

I don't know maybe I'm harping on something that seems obvious to 
everone but me.

Rob Z.
--------------------------------------------------------
Man has such a predilection for systems and abstract deductions that
he is ready to distort the truth intentionally, he is ready to deny 
the evidence of his senses only to justify his logic.
-- Notes from Underground, Fyodor Dostoyevsky