Re: VL - Vulcan in Vulcan Saul Epstein Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:06:27 -0500 From: McReynolds Date: Saturday, October 18, 1997 10:39 AM =20 > >>>Rob wrote: > >>>>Marketa answered this in Message-Id: 4699 Wed, 8 Oct 1997 > 09:24:44 -0700: > >>>> > >>>>" The name of the planet is W~L'q'n" >=20 > I was just wondering why the name of Vulcan given in novels and other Trek > guides was abandoned in favor of W~L'q'n. There are many references to > "novel Vulcan" throughout the lexicon, and it seems to be an integral part. > For example, t'hy'la is included, as well as words from "Spock's World." > Outside of the Vulcan Language being developed here, Vulcan was always > called T'Khasi by the natives. I was under the impression that there was a tradition in literary ST that Vulcans had several names for "the world," mainly to accommodate the different statements of different authors over time. I may have read (one or more of) the book(s) that "T'Khasi" appears in, but if so I have forgotten. I should point out that I may be the party responsible for "W~L'q'n." As I remember, someone asked, as others have done again recently, what Vulcans call Vulcan -- specifically what the Vulcan word for the planet was. I included this word among my contribution to the discussion -- though I think I suggested that it might originally have just been the word for "home," which would leave room for other names. And I'm sure I mentioned something about the likely linguistic diversity of ancient Vulcan, etc. I constructed "w~l'q'n" out of as many of the strange phones the Zvelebil Construction gives us that would sound something like "vulcan," mainly to address the natural tendency to leave the stranger sounds out when we construct words. But I did not do so with any hope of being taken seriously, for the very reasons you cite below. I also remember that Marketa responded later saying that "W~L'q'n" was, indeed, the Vulcan word for Vulcan. I couldn't tell if she was just endorsing my suggestion or if I had guessed a match to something she or Zvelebil the Elder had come up with between editions of the ZC. And that's what I know. ;-, > Personally, I find W~L'q'n very contrived and coincidental. I can see how, > hypothetically, humans might hear the word, associate it with the old god > Vulcan, and then call their planet that. But it is still a little TOO > similar for my tastes. For example, in Gelet's kardasi, I always felt that > the planet we call Cardassia being called "kardass^a" (kar-das-sha) was VERY > contrived. Of course, it is contrived in both cases, but I find this scenario, that the FedStandard words "Vulcan" and "Cardassia" derive from actual Vulcan and Cardassian words respectively, much preferable to the scenario in which Federation explorers "christen" other people as they see fit. I despise the habit among Terrans and I would like to think that they and other Federation peoples have grown out of it. It would be better, of course, if those of us constructing these languages strove to avoid using suggestive endings (-i for adjectives, -a for place names, in the case of kardasi/kardas=9Aa) but that's a minor complaint. After all, "Vulcan" is a Terran word, but "Cardassia" is not. Where should we suppose it came from? Conversely, if some Vulcan word having to do with the planet or its people had not sounded like a Terran word, it too would most likely have been subjected to FedStandard morphology. "T'Khasi" might very well have been rendered "Tacossia." > At least Okrand (well, Paramount, but that's a different story) > chose Qo'noS for the Klingon home world, rather than the silly-sounding > "Kling." Yes, although "Q'ing" would have done as well. And isn't there a word something like "tlhingan" for the language or the people? > In other words, I would prefer to see the planet called something alien > (T'Khasi works fine for me) and just say that humans called it "Vulcan" > before meeting the inhabitants than having such a glaring backfit. T'Khasi works for me as well, and I'm not attached to W~L'q'n, other than for what I personally find a more palatable explanation for the FedStandard name. No account that I'm aware of puts Terrans in a position to have named the planet before contact with its inhabitants. And I'm not suggesting that "Vulcan" was chosen because of any association with the god; only that it was chosen on the basis of a phonetic similarity. The god is associated with fire, to be sure, but not with heat per se, let alone deserts, bright sun, strength, stoicism, or analytical intelligence... =20 > -McReynolds >=20 > P,S. Note that I have absolutely NO linguistic training or background, but > I find languages fascinating; hence, I'm on this list to learn rather than > help create the language or even really discuss it. So, feel free to > completely disregard my comments! ;-) This one, with SOME linguistic training, welcomes all comments and will treat them with regard. This list won't be worth much if people feel they can't participate without the proper technical background, and the language we construct won't be worth much if people without a technical background can't relate to it. In other words, if I get too technical for you, slap me! But only if you want a "better" explanation... -- from Saul Epstein liberty uit net www johnco cc ks us sepstein posse circumuertutus libertas satis est "Surak ow'pha:per the's'hi the's'cha'; the's'pha:dzhar the's'hi surakecha'." -- K'dvarin Ursw~l'at